Keto for MS, Iron Overload, Credibility Sans RD | THRR109

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Podcast Questions:

1. Credibility without Higher Education [10:57]

Ashlyn says:

Hi Guys,

For the past year I have done a complete 180° as far as diet, exercise, and the way I view the world. I would love to become a dietitian and study the links between diet and autoimmunity (I have MS) but the financial factor of university is too extreme. I want to spread the news of what I believe to friends and family, but how do I gain credibility? I don’t want to say “it’s true because I watched a YouTube video.” Do you have any advice on how I can find/study credible information and start diving deeper into the world of dietetics?

2. Iron Overload [27:14]

Sarah says:

Hi Robb and Nicki,

Let me start by saying that I truly love your podcast and never get tired of listening to you two! Whether I am in the mood for nutrition science, current news, or just a good conversation, your podcast always ticks all the boxes. I can’t think of another podcast where I can get as much information while simultaneously getting a good giggle. So thank you.

My question is in regards to iron overload, sometimes referred to as iron dysfunction. Have you heard or read the work of Morley M. Robbins? It is based on the premise that so called iron deficiency anemia is in fact not a deficiency at all, but in fact iron dysfunction which results in an overload of iron in the tissue, subsequently causing all the problems that are often diagnosed as anemia. One of the important points he makes is that we suffer from iron dysfunction because of a lack of bio-available copper, as well as a lack of retinol.

I have myself had lower blood iron levels for quite some time, even after incorporating grassfed beef and organs into my diet on a regular basis. I have been eating a (now dairy-inclusive) paleo diet for many years, and recently switched to a more animal-based type diet, and saw massive improvements in energy, but still not optimal, particularly on the first week of my cycle.

It would be really cool if you guys did a full episode on iron, iron absorption and the likes, or perhaps you have already done one and I have missed it?

If you could comment on the work of Morley Robbins, that would be extremely helpful.

Thanks so much,



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Download Transcript Here (PDF)

Nicki: It’s time to make your health an act of rebellion. We’re tackling personalized nutrition, metabolic flexibility, resilient aging, and answering your diet and lifestyle questions. This is the only show with the bold aim to help one million people liberate themselves from the sick care system. You’re listening to The Healthy Rebellion Radio. The contents of this show are for entertainment and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast should be considered medical advice. Please consult your licensed and credentialed functional medicine practitioner before embarking on any health, dietary, or fitness change. Warning, when Robb gets passionate, he’s been known to use the occasional expletive. If foul language is not your thing, if it gets your britches in a bunch, well, there’s always Disney+.

Robb: Are we here? Are we live?

Nicki: We are here.

Robb: Are we doing it?

Nicki: Welcome back to The Healthy Rebellion Radio. This is episode 109. Hey, hubs.

Robb: Morning, wife.

Nicki: Good morning. Good morning. May the 4th be with you.

Robb: May the 4th be with you.

Nicki: It’s always fun.

Robb: Well, when you work from home, and don’t really see people, then you-

Nicki: You take joy in all the little things.

Robb: Take joy in whatever you can do.

Nicki: Yes. Yes. What do we got going on in today’s episode? We are wrapping up sleep week in The Healthy Rebellion. This is week two of our 30 day Rebel Reset. And then next week we’ll be heading into our Movement Week. So good stuff going on in there. We actually had a wonderful comment. It is sleep week, but we had a comment about community with regards to The Healthy Rebellion community. And I just thought I’d read it because it’s just pretty cool. This is from Melissa. She says, “I’ve been the type of person who’s like, ‘I don’t need external influences to do something.’ But I’ve got to tell you, I do. And these last couple of weeks have proved it. Being a part of this group has led me to exercising four days a week, and still walking 10,000 steps a day, and also staying with meat and veggies with an occasional square of 90% dark chocolate and the very sparing use of protein powder. I cut sugar cold turkey, and haven’t really missed it. I’ve been so lonely where we live. I left my facility job for a work from home, slash, travel job. And I really miss my work family. We don’t know many people around us, and those we do, we just don’t mesh. So this group has been outstanding for me. Just wanted to say thanks for that.”

Robb: That’s big.

Nicki: It’s big.

Robb: It’s a big deal.

Nicki: Yeah, I know. That sentiment is fairly common because a lot of people have shuffled and moved around in the last two years, primarily due to all things COVID, and whatnot, and job changes. And so it’s hard to get your grounding again and find like-minded community. And I mean, I feel like we feel incredibly blessed to… Well, we intentionally came to where an SBG was because of the community. And that’s been a lifesaver for us. But for those that aren’t plugged into something like an in real life gym, or an in real life church, or whatever it is, these online communities can really have a profound impact in just your feeling of connection, and mental health, and all of that.

Robb: Do I want to… Maybe we’ll save it for next week. We’ll actually read it. Well, I’ll, I’ll just take the gist of it. Somebody messaged me on The Rebellion, and I guess this is our moment to beat the drum of how wonderful The Healthy Rebellion is, but this person, guy pinged me. He’s like, “Hey, have followed your work for a long time, big fan. But I have to admit, when I saw The Healthy Rebellion launched, I rolled my eyes and I was like, ‘Oh great. Here’s the inner circle, secret handshake.’ I was expecting all of this Matt Fury, goofy bullshit. And I kept watching from the exterior, and I didn’t get any of that messaging. And so I thought, ‘Well, maybe this is actually legit.'” The guy joined, has been part of three resets, and he’s like, “It’s really a wonderful community. And I legitimately look forward to it every single day.” I was like, “Well, that’s cool. I do too.” And we spun it up because we wanted an alternative to social media as it stood in the toxicity and difficulty that it presents, but we still want to be able to connect with people. Ash and a couple other folks just had a pretty cool meetup. And there’s a few meetups popping up here and there, it’s not a massive community, but it’s big enough that-

Nicki: Little pockets.

Robb: … almost anybody anywhere can-

Nicki: Find somebody.

Robb: … get together with somebody. And maybe they’re not your besties, but it’s in real life connection. And also some very powerful virtual connection.

Nicki: For sure, for sure. A couple of things upcoming in The Healthy Rebellion. Our next book club book is going to be kicking off on May 30th. We’ll be reading The Book of Joy by the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu. So that’s coming up. And then we’re doing another breath work challenge coming up in June. So I’m looking forward to both of those. And I think that’s all for our beginning announcements. What do you have for a news topic?

Robb: So this one is from, utilization of the ketogenic diet in patients with relapsing, remitting multiple sclerosis. And this was started in 2018, I believe, and then was wrapped up in August of 2021. So this clinical trial is finished. I was privy to a little bit of the inside baseball on the data. So it’s basically a ketogenic diet for folks with pretty severe multiple sclerosis. What they found was that, on average, folks reported a 50% improvement in their general energy levels, day to day. And 50% reduction in pain, stiffness, physical symptoms. So I’m not sure when it will see the light of day, because apparently there’s a little bit of politicing going on because the notion that a ketogenic diet could be beneficial for a multiple sclerosis or autoimmune disease, apparently there’s just some sort of like politicing going on with this thing.

Nicki: Interesting. I would never guess that there would be any politicing going on with a nutritional intervention that is essentially free to help ameliorate disease processes.

Robb: Right. Right. And a couple of thoughts on this, but I think it’s a really important piece as a standalone. Given my experience more recently of removing dairy proteins because of what I suspect was a rheumatoid arthritis flare, it would be really interesting to steward this a little bit more along the autoimmune side. And then related to that autoimmune paleo side of things, there’s a whole contingent led primarily by one person who has decried the application of the ketogenic diet for therapeutic interventions for autoimmune disease. And I’m just at the end of my tether with it. I’ve generally played nice, but I’m going to start playing very not nice with these folks at this point, because I think that they’re damaging people and we can always, always have the caveat that this is not appropriate for all people under all situations.

Robb: But the ask that we are putting upon people in these scenarios is give this a shot for 30, 60, 90 days. And then let’s assess at the end. And we can certainly look at lipidology. And if we see sky high lipoproteins, then we can assess whether or not we think the risk reward story is favorable here. And even in the case of elevated lipoproteins, we don’t always know for sure that is a negative with regards to cardiovascular disease. And what we do know for sure, because this person has raised questions for folks with like the APOE44 genotype, which seemed to face both enhanced neurological disease process and cardiovascular disease process. If one is actively in an autoimmune state when you look at the data around that as it relates to morbidity mortality, and just in general, but specifically to cardiovascular disease, active autoimmune disease dramatically increases the likelihood of cardiovascular disease. So there’s some quasi-religious stuff that has been going down around this topic. And I’m going to start grabbing that bull by the horns and having have at it. And again, I think that there might be a lot of upside with the way that this is done. It just says ketogenic diet. It doesn’t talk specifically about the composition.

Nicki: Right. So this could be a ketogenic diet that includes a significant amount of dairy, which-

Robb: Which might be able to improve that.

Nicki: … if we pulled that out might have-

Robb: Yeah. Yeah. Some people, it may not be a big deal. Other people, it absolutely is. So, yeah, it’s an important piece. I will keep my eyes open, and I set up a Google alert if this thing ever does see the light of day. But we do have at least this site currently.

Nicki: Cool. Okay. Let’s see. The Health Rebellion Radio is sponsored by our salty AF electrolyte company, LMNT. As many of you know, sodium has been demonized for years, but despite its previous bad rap, it is a crucial element for optimal health. So if you have muscle cramps, fatigue, low energy, you might just need a little more salt. LMNT makes that both easy and delicious to get all the electrolytes you need, including sodium. And as I’ve mentioned previously, May is grapefruit salt month. Our limited edition fan favorite is coming in just a few short weeks, but for now you can get all of our flavors at That’s drink, LMNT, .com, slash, robb.

Robb: Wow. That was very concise.

Nicki: I’m refining my pitch.

Robb: Nice.

Nicki: All right. We’ve got two questions for you all today. The first one is from Ashlyn on credibility without higher education. “Hi guys, for the past year, I have done a complete 180 as far as diet, exercise, and the way I view the world. I would love to become a dietician and study the links between diet and auto immunity. I have MS. But the financial factor of university is too extreme. I want to spread the news of what I believe to friends and family, but how do I gain credibility? I don’t want to say, quote, it’s true because I watched a YouTube video, unquote. Do you have any advice on how I can find and study credible information and start diving deeper into the world of dietetics?”

Robb: What are your thoughts on this?

Nicki: Well, my first thought whenever I hear anybody wants to become a dietician, it’s like, “Why do you want to become a dietician?” And obviously, the credibility piece is a big reason to do so. I think that was the main reason Diana Rogers went that route. But the path, aside from the financial factor, which Ashlyn mentions, that path of study is so, from people who have gone through it and shared with us, it’s just the most soul sucking… I don’t even know the words. Just you’re learning things that, if you’re in this ancestral health oriented framework, the stuff that you’re going to learn from a traditional dietetics program is going to be a complete 180 from that. And so you’re going to be forced to memorize and regurgitate stuff that is fairly dated or fairly… I don’t know if dated is the right word, but-

Robb: Definitely biased.

Nicki: … but biased, and depending on your personality, you may or may not be able to just chop wood, carry water, swallow that pill, and get through. But a lot of people who don’t have that personality, like you, would have a really hard time even just making it through that program, biting your tongue the whole time.

Robb: Yeah. It’s interesting. I think about this credibility. And I guess part of the… I definitely wanted to get your thoughts on it, but we’re in the process of homeschooling our kids, and we’ve been chatting with some folks around possibly some more formalized but alternative education, like different academies and stuff like that. And it’s interesting because poking around online, poking around on YouTube, there’s absolute garbage. And then there’s also the entire works of Richard Fineman and stuff like that. And so you can get literally the best stuff imaginable on the planet, and there’s things like Khan Academy and whatnot. I don’t know that I ever had anybody ask me for what my credentials were when we were running specifically a brick and mortar gym. I guess I do think that people poke around and look at CVs, and bios, and everything. And it’s like, “Oh, he was a biochemist.” And so I guess that, if somebody’s going to get their back up about credentials and whatnot, I guess I had ticked enough of the boxes that, generally, that wasn’t that big of a deal. Although when people want to do slings and arrows at me, they’re like, “He’s not a dietician, he’s not this, he’s not that.” And so…

Nicki: I wonder if Ashlyn wants to work primarily with the autoimmune community. Given that she has MS and if she changes her diet and sees significant improvement there, A, that’s a great personal transformation story that can be leveraged in gaining clients. And then it doesn’t have to be like, “I watched a YouTube video.” That paper that you just read for our news topic about a ketogenic diet for multiple sclerosis, I think you could build like a wall of research around, “This is what I base my approach on.” And you can just have hundreds of research papers. And then if you see a dramatic improvement from doing this, and then maybe you work with other people who have autoimmune conditions or maybe just weight loss, and they see… And it’s more compelling too. If you have a potential client, and they’re looking at someone with all of these degrees after their name, or I’m looking at someone who’s been able to deliver all of these results, people are more attracted to what can you do for me? How is my life going to change if I work with you kind of a thing. So I think there are ways around it. Obviously you want to study and do your… And I guess her question, how can I find credible information to dive deeper? Are there any research-

Robb: Again, I find that… And maybe I’m being overly… In this world where it’s like, “Oh, this is fake news,” and misinformation, and stuff like that, again, the way that I ground my worldview is economics, evolution, and thermodynamics. I think that those are brass tacks, broad, scientific concepts that economics deals with resource allocation, evolution deals with the way that systems change over time basically, and adapt to try to optimize for whatever environment they’re in. And then thermodynamics deals with energy input and output. And that’s the big broad stuff. And that basically encapsulates all of life at the end of the day. So I think anything that is pretty consistent with evolutionary theory, or at least has an eye towards that. And some people will eye roll over the paleo diet and whatnot, but it’s like, “Well, okay, so what are you using as a basis for starting the conversation? Froot Loops? Twinkies? Fuck you.

Nicki: Everything in moderation.

Robb: Yeah. And everything in moderation-

Nicki: Including fire Doritos.

Robb: There’s an outstanding paper, The Determinants Of Brain Evolution, The Omnivores Real Dilemma, which I cited in Wired To Eat. Everything in moderation is exactly diametrically opposed to fundamental human biology, to all organismal biology. Anything that moves, it’s trying to get more energy than what it expends in the process of getting it, because if it doesn’t do that, then we’re fucking up the thermodynamic side. And we’re also screwing up the economics, like resource allocation side. So I’ve noodled on, “The way that Robb…” What is Mike Rose thing? The way I heard it.

Nicki: The way I heard it.

Robb: Yeah. Maybe something the way I think about it. And just maybe 20 papers, and the big picture story. And then you auger down. Although I think reading Wired To Eat, really, if you walk through that, it gives you a pretty good sense of this stuff. But so much of this story is your epistemological framework, the way that you think about things. It’s not so much… For sure, if you lack math skills, or reading skills, or writing skills, some of this stuff is going to be onerous and difficult. I can do some statistical analysis, but I’m not a statistician. So getting really deep into regression analysis and whatnot, I can do it, but I would have to sit down and reteach myself to do it because I don’t know how to do that stuff. But I get a pretty good sense, like licking your finger and seeing which direction the wind is blowing kind of thing, just by having enough of a background to be able to understand this stuff. So I think for Ashlyn, the way that you want to spend your time, to your point, do you want to work with people one on one, are you going to be doing small group stuff?

Robb: Most people do need to advertise their efforts to some degree on the interwebs. You could do a nutritional therapy practitioner or similar, like Bauman College. And then a Chris Kresser, adapt 180, or a primal health coach, or something along that line to round things out. Precision Nutrition, like John Berardi’s Precision Nutrition is fantastic. It just a brass tacks, nuts and bolts level. And also it’s very, very good at the readiness for change in motivational interviewing and stuff, which I honestly think is massively important. If you could graft some basic understanding, if you could really pull what’s in Wired To Eat from a mechanistic perspective, glycemic control, a little bit of an eye towards immunogenic foods and then proper protein for satiety. And then you could interview people in such a way that you knew who was ready for change, you’re fucking set. You could have a just rocking a nutritional practice. Autoimmune, athletic, however you wanted to orient that stuff. And then from there, I guess, I don’t know what. I’m floundering around here.

Nicki: And I’m just thinking too, what she mentions, she wants to spread the news of what she believes to friends and family, but they might not believe her. They’re almost ever going to.

Robb: And family are almost the worst people possible to talk to about.

Nicki: Right, but there are some great resources, like Terry Walls’ book. And especially with regards to MS, I mean, she’s a medical doctor. She had MS, she was wheelchair bound. She changed her diet. And now she’s lecturing all over the world and writing books. So there are some other examples that aren’t just like some random person’s YouTube video that I think are more compelling if you’re trying to just say, “Hey, this is what I’m trying. This is what I’m doing because it helped this woman, who’s an MD. And so I’m trying it for me.” And then maybe that might open their minds a little bit. And if you’re just trying to get them to not be critical of what you’re doing, which again, as to your point, Robb, family does that.

Robb: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicki: It’s hard to win-

Robb: Family is likely the worst place to go.

Nicki: They’re the hardest ones to win over, usually, depending on your circumstances.

Robb: So, Ashlyn, I don’t know if we helped you at all on that, but I think that, if you want to work in a hospital, if you want to work in a doctor’s office or something, then yeah, you’re almost certainly going to have to do something that’s a little bit more mainstream in flavor. I do think it’s valuable to have some basic steeping in this stuff, like doing a year long survey class of general, organic, and biochemistry, I think would be phenomenal for-

Nicki: And you can find those online.

Robb: You can find those online. And these survey classes that cover all that stuff are ball busters. They’re very difficult. People look down upon them because it’s usually more the allied healthcare folks that take them. You don’t take that to go into medical school, or PhD track, or something. But they’re basically trying to take everything that’s important about general organic and biochemistry, and throw it at you in one year, when usually that’s three years worth of material. And so they’re very rigorous. But when you come out of that thing, just really understanding hydrophobic versus hydrophilic, why things stick to each other and why… So somebody will ask you a question about toxicants or something like that. You’re starting to understand the way that the physical world actually functions, and diffusion gradients and stuff like that.

Robb: If people learn the shit, and they don’t just cram for the test and then fucking forget it, then they really understand the world in a pretty profound way. So you can flesh out a nutritional therapy program or Bauman College. They cover some of the chemistry, but it’s at a very superficial level. You could do an online chemistry class. There was the guy that does the lecture notes in human metabolism. Working one’s way through that book, you would… So well prepared, so phenomenally well prepared for anything short of wanting to be a researcher. I mean, you really, you could sit down and you could read scientific papers, and there’s great courses online about how to read a scientific paper. And if you want to geek out on biostatistics… And it’s interesting, I think in 20 years, it’s going to be a different world. I don’t know that doctors just 100% learn online, but I think that a lot of this stuff is going to look more like Victorian era trades, where you find something that you want to do. And a bunch of them, the learning is virtual. And then you get hands on training, and the need for this four year college degree, and then postgraduate and all that stuff. You could arguably-

Nicki: Very specialized things maybe would need that, but-

Robb: Yeah, some things, but even then, if you’re going to become an engineer or physicist, just there’s just a bunch of bullshit. There’s all this breadth and depth stuff and everything that just stretches. In the military, when they want to train somebody up to run the nuclear physics side of their submarines and whatnot, it’s an 18 month deal. And they’re not a physicist at the end of that, but God damn, they know a lot. And they just streamline it down to the shit that you really need to know, instead of just adding another thing and another thing for really dubious reasons. And so I think that this, how we look at expertise, is going to change in the future. And honestly, the flip side though, is I think within COVID we saw this, just a big chunk of the population double down on expertise, even though the funny thing with that is you have people like Robert Malone and Pierre Kory, and whatnot, that are experts in their field, but were discredited because they weren’t parroting what everybody else wanted them to say.

Nicki: And all the authors of The Great Barrington Declaration who are very esteemed.

Robb: Yeah, so I don’t know. I don’t know. Anyway, Ashlyn, I would just be really crystal clear about the way that you want to spend your day, if you… Diana Rogers, it’s so funny, her getting a dietetics degree. She basically strong armed me into agreeing, “Yeah, it’s probably a good idea.” I was like, “Nah, you don’t really need to do that.” And then when she was in the whole thing, she wanted to kill me because the whole process sucked, and I’m like, “I didn’t actually…” What I did say to her though, in honesty, I’m like, “I think it will give you more credibility. It’ll open some doors, but it’s by no means 100% necessary.” But she’s in Brazil right now, giving these talks to these huge food manufacturers. And I think, absent the RD, it might have been more difficult to get that done. The fact that she’s a licensed medical provider within dietetics definitely facilitated that stuff.

Nicki: Okay. Let’s see. Our next question is from Sarah on iron overload. “Hi Robb and Nicki, let me start by saying that I truly love your podcast and never get tired to listening to you too. Whether I’m in the mood for nutrition, science, current news, or just a good conversation, your podcast always ticks all the boxes. I can’t think of another podcast where I can get as much information while simultaneously getting a good giggle. So thank you.” That’s awesome. “My question is in regards to iron overload, sometimes referred to as iron dysfunction. Have you heard or read the work of Morley M. Robbins? It is based on the premise that so-called iron deficiency anemia is in fact not a deficiency at all, but in fact, iron dysfunction, which results in an overload of iron in the tissue subsequently causing all the problems that are often diagnosed as anemia.”

Nicki: “One of the important points he makes is that we suffer from iron dysfunction because of a lack of bio available copper, as well as a lack of retinol. I have myself had lower blood iron levels for quite some time, even after incorporating grass fed beef and organs into my diet on a regular basis. I’ve been eating a now dairy inclusive paleo diet for many years, and recently switched to a more animal based type diet and saw massive improvements in energy, but still not optimal, particularly on the first week of my cycle. It would be really cool if you guys could address this.” And yeah, and she asked if we’ve already done an episode on this and she’s missed it. But nope. Thanks so much, Sarah.

Robb: Yeah. And she asked us to…. This gentleman, Morley Robbins, I had not heard of him. He’s been talking about iron overload scenarios. And it’s funny because I was poking around on Twitter, and somebody had found a post that I did, or actually it was the chapter of The Paleo Solution that talk talks about intestinal permeability, basically keep your poop where it belongs. And it was on Tim Ferris’s blog. And this person tagged me, tagged Tim Ferris, and then tagged Ron D. Patrick, and was like, “Is this guy right? Does he know what he’s talking about?” It’s just so like-

Nicki: “What’s his credibility?”

Robb: Yeah. What’s his credibility? And it’s so awkward doing that to people. And also, it’s in that scenario, I have all these references. So had the person actually had any self-starter curiosity, they would’ve just looked at the references in intestinal permeability and gone from there. But I get it also, trying to find an authority on something and get some of their thoughts. So I don’t want to be brazen in addressing this guy’s work, because I didn’t spend five days researching him and reading every article and whatnot. From what I can tell, most of what he’s recommending seems pretty reasonable. He recommends essentially a higher fat ancestral type diet, not necessarily ketogenic. I’m on board with most of what he’s talking about with regards to the most people probably being under fueled in copper and vitamin A, which is the retinol.

Robb: He seems very… Persistent isn’t the right word. A little dogmatic on the iron overload deal. Now I too think that the iron overload issue is big. And it first got on my radar in 2000, 2001 when I read the Eades’ book, Protein Power Lifeplan. And they recommended getting your ferritin levels checked and general iron status assessed. And even for men. It’s almost the way that we look at vitamin D now, it’s like everybody is vitamin D deficient. The Reno SpecialtyHealth Clinic, they even quit testing people’s vitamin D because it’s 150 bucks, and everybody’s deficient in vitamin D. So they just start-

Nicki: Just don’t pay for the test and just start supplementing it.

Robb: Just don’t pay for the test and just start supplementing. Literally after thousands of people, and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on testing, it’s like, “Okay, just do it.” Similar deal, most men should donate blood. I should probably donate blood more, but I only do when I get my nose popped in Jiu-Jitsu or something like that. It’s been on my list of things to do. Chris Masterjohn has talked about this and I like his take on this stuff a bit better than Morley’s, although his seems pretty well informed. I just think some of the stuff gets a little over the top. But I think that the general notion of iron load is real, iron overload is real. I have not seen this couch though, in terms of anemia being portrayed like your tissues are saturated with iron, but yet you’re registering as anemic. I haven’t really seen that. And that is perplexing and head scratching to me because I feel like ferritin should be high and all this stuff. And so that part, I don’t really get, but I think the broad brush strokes of iron overload being problematic for a lot of folks is almost certainly true.

Robb: I think most women who are still menstruating, this is not generally an issue because they’re discharging enough iron, that that’s not really a problem. Man, what else? So I think that this is potentially a worthwhile place to poke around. And from what I saw, I spent maybe 45 minutes poking around looking at different articles that this guy has written and commentary around it. In broad brush strokes, I think what he’s recommending seems pretty spot on. It gets detailed into like, “You need to supplement with this particular type of B product.” It wasn’t propolis. It was… What’s the other B stuff, not honey, not propolis. Pollen, just this particular B pollen for B vitamins. And I don’t know about that. That starts getting a little bit dubious. And then don’t take regular vitamin C. Take this bio available vitamin C.

Robb: And I don’t know. That starts getting a little bit odd. But beyond that, he seems to recommend a minimally processed whole food diet that is animal product heavy, that leans a little more towards fat and fat soluble vitamins. I do think that folks could generally benefit from getting a little more copper in their diet. Again, Chris Masterjohn has talked about this stuff. Zinc supplementation, and high zinc diets actually cause copper depletion. So lots of people are zinc deficient, and every once in a while, we feel a scratchy throat, we’ll do the-

Nicki: Zinc lozenge.

Robb: … lozenge. And I do, on the heels of that, try to supplement with a a couple of days of some additional copper, just for a day or two, just to make sure I’m not depleted there.

Nicki: Okay. Hopefully that helps a bit. I think that’s a wrap. Any other thoughts? Closing thoughts on anything on this very fine May the 4th of 2022?

Robb: Not really. There’s this whole ministry of truth thing, which we might dig into a little bit. I shot a little… Did a shot across the bow with Ms. Jankewitz.

Nicki: Oh, I saw that. Is that your Harry Potter link that you linked?

Robb: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicki: I saw that. I think you mistyped Wikipedia when you tagged. Were you trying to tag Wikipedia?

Robb: No.

Nicki: No? Okay. Then don’t listen to me. I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Robb: Yeah. You never know what you’re talking about.

Nicki: Okay. There we have it folks. Yes, I did, and who was it that showed me… It was John the other weekend, the video of the guy singing that Mary Poppins song. I might need to find that and put it in the show notes if I got it somewhere.

Robb: Well, we might do maybe a little… Might do a salty talk and do a bit of a state of the world deal. Some of the food shortage stuff and some thoughts around that.

Nicki: That might be good. That might be good.

Robb: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicki: Okay. All right, everybody. Thank you for joining us. For another episode of The Healthy Rebellion Radio. Please check out our show sponsor, LMNT, for all your electrolyte needs. You can grab those at And keep in mind the two upcoming events that we have going on in The Healthy Rebellion, both the new book club book, The Book of Joy, coming out on… Or the book club beginning on May 30th. And then I think the first week of June, or shortly thereafter, our seven day breath work challenge. So you can join us for those and all future events by going to

Robb: Bye everybody.

Nicki: See you later.

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Robb Wolf

Robb Wolf, author of The Paleo Solution and Wired to Eat , is a former research biochemist and one of the world’s leading experts in Paleolithic nutrition. Wolf has transformed the lives of tens of thousands of people around the world via his top ranked iTunes podcast and wildly popular seminar series.